The answer was that no one, except for Walter Ray fiddling with it from time to time, does, probably because the two-handed delivery places too much strain on the lower back to lend itself to use by older bowlers. But, both Mark and Thomas opined that we might start seeing more elite female players using this style.
For, whereas a man using this style gets only a relatively small rev and speed advantage over the more powerful one-handed stylists on tour, an effective two-handed female bowler would have a tremendous power advantage over all but, perhaps, Michelle Feldman. So, if a woman were to start throwing the ball well two-handed, it could entice many other women to adopt the style, and this could have a huge impact on elite women's bowling.
I followed up this question by asking if any seniors on tour bowled with no thumb one-handed. Thomas answered that no one on the senior tour does now but that there's a guy in Southern California approaching seniorhood who might soon make a dent on the tour with his one-handed thumbless style and that Mike Miller, who cashed in the Tournament of Champions this year, would also be a senior soon and could be a thumbless force to be reckoned with.
If I don't beat him to it with my own thumbless style, that is. :-) Or maybe I should further develop my two-handed game.
Hi Steve,
ReplyDeleteI saw your posting while searching for senior two handed bowlers. I have been bowling two handed for about 3 years now. I am 59 years old and located in Pensacola FL. Currently I am the only one in the area to bowl two handed. When I first started, there were a lot of complaints. Now due to the popularity of the style, it is accepted. As you stated, it is very true that two handed delivery puts high strain on the hips, but have less effect on the shoulder. Because I was having problems with my shoulder and needed more power, I started bowling two handed. It is not as easy as many would think, and you have to be just as accurate. But with some experimenting, I have found that two handed delivery give one a huge advantage. With right ball you have a huge area to play, and the carry is much better. With my experience now, I can pick the time to strike most of the time. It’s a great feeling to have the control and power that a teen bowler has at age of 59. Because of the stain, I always wear my hit support, and now I am testing shoulder supports to give me the ability to play many more games if I am to compete, because two handed bowling is more physical. I will start showing up at senior tournaments in 2013. Wish me luck. C.R.
Excellent! Personally, I started using a foam rolling technique on my slide-side hip region to work out the knots. Things to consider are general physical conditioning outside of bowling, maybe a dynamic warm-up before bowling and stretching after bowling. It is a SPORT after all! Ultimately, I suspect, if anything, two-handing will make us stronger rather than damaged.
DeleteI do wish you luck with the two-handed game. I love to watch bowlers who execute it well, and it sounds as though practice may be making you better and better at it.
ReplyDeleteI'm the same age you are and I've thought of going to two hands myself. Sometimes I even practice doing it and have strung a lot of strikes and shot some pretty high scores that way.
But my biggest problem with it continues to be my inability to generate enough ball speed. So, I continue to throw my strike ball thumbless but with one hand. Well, not strictly one hand. Awhile back, I began using my other hand to hold the ball for the first couple of steps, kind of like Tom Smallwood does. This seems to give me more control of the ball through the backswing. But I take the supporting hand away before you two-handers do.
Again, good luck to you, and please come back and let us know how you do during the 2013 season.
Steve, Just want to thank you for taking my place for so many weeks on Tuesdays. I probably should have let you bowl again for me today but I was feeling pretty good and I know I need to bowl as many games as possible to get back in shape. After 3 months of watching, I was surprise by how weak I've become. My footwork wasn't too bad but my ball speed and release was really inconsistent. We were also bowling on 13/14 and 13 would hook and 14 wouldn't. Both teams had some good games but mostly below average. When you see the recap you'll know what I mean. Its a good thing we all have a good sense of humor. We won 15 out of 25 but not because of anything I did. Sorry for the short notice today. -- Doug
ReplyDeleteThank you for allowing me to bowl for you, Douglas. I'm sure you'll get your bowling legs under you after a little more practice. The main thing is that you didn't say anything about your back bothering you, and that seems like a good sign.
ReplyDeleteSteve, I was also surprised by my recovery. Prior to the surgery I couldn't be on my feet for 5 minutes. Now, 6 screws and 2 metal plates later, I never have any pain :-) Its always funny to watch everyone before the Senior Scratch as they strap on all the equipment that allows them to keep bowling. Lots of back braces and knee braces. Proof that the competitive fires are still burning late in life. Rico is amazing at 89 and still able to shoot over 800 for 4 occasionally. Most of us will never even live to be 89 :-)
DeleteI think it's fantastic that you aren't having any more pain. If you still have relatively good range of motion, it sounds like you'll be back to your old self or even better than your old self after you've bowled for awhile.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's hard to get rid of the bowling bug after it's bitten you, and as long as the guys in that league can keep throwing the ball, even if with ever diminishing power and ability, they're probably going to keep doing it.
Rick IS amazing, and, what's more, he seems to respond very well to your coaching. Maybe you guys can make a run of it during the next league segment. Best of luck to you. And if any other team needs a sub with my average, I'm available and would love the opportunity to bowl.
Ric's a robo-bowler. I've never seen an old person with such a perfectly straight 5 step approach. My coaching is limited to reminding him to move his feet left every 4 or 5 frames as the lanes break down. I also tell him to throw around the oil not down the middle of it. With his ball speed, he doesn't want his ball to be skidding on impact. I don't know if you know this, but Ric shot 2 perfectos when he was 84.
DeleteYes, he told me about those 300's, and I just shook my head in awe. If I make it to 89, which seems extremely doubtful, I'll surely be lucky if I can even walk much less bowl a tenth as well as Ric.
DeleteSteve, What do you know about Storm's new Vector Layout System? --Doug
ReplyDeleteDoug, here's a video that provides some graphic detail on the system. http://youtu.be/Z23_PhPx_xA
ReplyDeleteYes, I've seen the video, just wondered if you've tried it yet? Other than the video, there's not much on the internet about it. It seems to be just a way to quantify the PSA layout system using rather vague values for speed, axis-tilt and axis- rotation, rather than specific values which would require a camera and some background to calculate these values based on frames per second. I also read somewhere there's a phone app that does the same thing. Maybe Bob Brown showed it to me.
ReplyDeleteNo, Doug, I haven't tried it and only know what little I've read about it and seen of it in the video. You're right that quantifying the values with the aid of a camera and software would produce the most effective calculations, although I'm wondering how much of a difference this would make in layouts that would actually increase the bowler's scores significantly. I'm one of those guys who looks askance at how technical and equipment oriented the sport has become, although I suppose there's no turning back the clock of "progress."
ReplyDeleteAt my age, I'm looking for whatever edge I can get. With a 6 3/16 PAP, Down 3/8, I'm rather limited to what drillings I can use. So, I'm always looking --Doug
ReplyDeleteYour PAP isn't a limiting factor, unless the pin tends to end up on the edge of a fingerhole. The PAP is just a reference point. Your release specs (tilt, revs, speed, etc.) are the main factors. My PAP is roughly 5" over and 1" down, so my layouts /appear/ different, but the dynamics are similar.
DeleteI emailed Storm and asked if the VLS software would be made available to the public and they said they thought that would happen in June or July. I also heard they were updating VLS to take into consideration a ball's surface. I guess that will be VLS 2.0 :-)
ReplyDeleteI have a copy of VLS. Probably the original version. I only wish that it would produce Dual-Angle numbers. (There is a little formula to convert to DA.) I don't really use VLS anyway.
DeleteI don't know if this was pointed out yet, but seniors might not bowl two-handed (yet) because the style wasn't proven effective until fairly recently. It will take time for current bowlers to age! I do know that there are 50+ y/o two-handers. I believe one guy is 60+. Women...yeah, there are some women two-handers and I'd like to see more. I totally believe it would benefit some of them.
ReplyDelete"Or maybe I should further develop my two-handed game."
ReplyDeleteOne suggestion: You don't need to push the ball away so high if you use a bent-arm backswing. (You might see Belmonte do that if he's lofting to the 7th arrow.) The backswing is more about a small swing amplified by the forward movement of the body, but mainly a lifting motion to elevate the ball over the hip. After that, it's all about a the biggest swing arc you can produce.
BTW, if you look at more powerful styles of one-handed bowling, you will see a lot of bending at the waist and turning sideways at the foul line. Two-handing doesn't utilise any more twisting and turning than those styles, if you do it well. Yet, how many people comment about the strain on the backs of those one-handers? I think two-handing gets the attention because it's misunderstood and different enough to cause speculation. Time will tell.
ReplyDeleteI'm a no-thumb two-hander, but I don't like the idea of no-thumb one handed. Keeping the support hand on the ball seems to make up for the issues of not using the thumb.
ReplyDeleteHi Steve, This is the senior bowler from Pensacola who bowls two handed again. After my last posting in 2013 I had a shoulder injury while cutting down a tree. I took a year and a half break to heal and do some traveling in my RV out west. I recently returned and rehabilitating my right shoulder and should be ready to bowl again with my right in few weeks. But during my recovery I recently started to bowl two handed with my left. To my surprise I am much stronger with my left and my bowl speed is much faster. When I bowled with my right two handed, I didn't think speed was a big factor. But after bowling with my left I have found it does make a big difference in strikes. I can now bowl over 200 with my left and enjoying my new found power and health with my left. I am 61 now and it is physically challenging to bowl two handed. It requires daily weight lifting and other activities. I just started back in two leagues with my left and will start bowling in two more leagues with my right in few weeks. I am planning to hit the senior tournaments in 2015. I will keep you posted...
ReplyDeleteGood to hear!
DeleteI'm a right-handed two-hander and have difficulty coordinating a left-handed two-handed approach. Trying left-handed makes me appreciate how much coordination I have right-handed! I can almost manage a left-handed delivery as a drill though.